1. #11
    Altera Savior
    Jun 2011
    899
    poor Optimus </3

    these list are fun.

    imo I'd bump [email protected] up 1. his cancer neutral game, tankiness, speed, mb cancel, and super sayian rage spam. and god his damage. just my limited knowledge open-onion.

    can some1 explain why Rena (in general) is so low on the list? not being critical, just generally wondering. (been absent from pvp for a while.)

  2. #12
    Ruben Villager
    Jun 2016
    180
    I was in the middle of editing come on guys. Patience, stuff takes awhile to type.
    >didn't say that you would specify why you thought what you thought and expect people to know that you will, when most people who just waltz in and claim something and not even state why never do in the future unless asked
    ok

    CrA, TT and BM should be S. ST should be moved down. CN should move down to A. I still feel like this list still needs a ton more tweaking.

    CrA has the ultimate kit of Iron Body's and Red Aura SA that can be used while being hit. With ERP added, it becomes even more dangerous as CD can make the uptime very high. They also have a healing ability, a ton of passives, gap closer, a skill to prevent mb, damage for just being next to them, and high damage overall.
    damage is high but her neutral isnt that oppressive and her reversal game isnt good enough to get her anywhere against the higher ups, her healing ability isnt really much to talk about either


    BM is probably the best duelist in the game in a 1v1 situation. This character also has the ability to escape in combos using shadowstep, has gap closers, delays, high damage, lifesteal, etc.
    ya bm is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and probly arguably more ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ than most people think but S is stretching it, he beats most chars in B and can stand his ground against some of the A but his strengths only take him so far.

    TT is very strong and it can be seen more the smaller the map is. He provides a very strong map presence and can control the map if used right. While having a superarmor bubble, he also has bombs and other artillery that can make it hard to approach a TT.
    unlike the other 2 chungs, TT can't really do anything once he starts getting beaten up. I'd prob immediately disagree with him being C and put him in B bcuz of lolchungneutral and MoC mp gain

    ST is seriously not that big a threat and with the conditions you placed, i expect very little damage to come from this ST. idk why thats even at S.
    literal free 6 mp/sec with big ♥♥♥♥ normals to cover her while she's clocking, making her neigh impossible to chase without accidentally getting caught yourself for most classes. fyi in free channel she does more in 1 combo than most chars

    CN i feel isn't at S form as she was before. There were parts of her that were tweaked and the mc nerf effected all eves. Although she has a higher base amount of power with the conditions you placed than the other two eves, she doesnt deserve to be S tier. cn is fundamentally still the same, press convert, use your pre-nerf RoF esque-skill, then 70% your opponent without them even having a bead on capped awk charge and wrath with >>x infinite. CN would only seem weaker because pretty much every cn is mediocre but having the literal free-est of catches for only 15% hp, for the damage she does herself still gives her the spot of probably-still-best-class-in-the-game

  3. #13
    Hamel Guardian
    Apr 2012
    3,472
    CrA has the ultimate kit of Iron Body's and Red Aura SA that can be used while being hit. With ERP added, it becomes even more dangerous as CD can make the uptime very high. They also have a healing ability, a ton of passives, gap closer, a skill to prevent mb, damage for just being next to them, and high damage overall.
    Iron Body - Strong still requires about 100 MP to use (only becoming less with ERP, I believe), so combos aren't significantly shortened by it, and CrA doesn't have good enough low MP okizeme to take advantage of the wakeup advantage Iron Body - Strong gives without tanking (which is a horrible idea against most good characters). In the case of Annihilation Aura, she likely won't get that without getting a combo in or taking one, and she isn't exceptionally great at getting the first catch (compared to the S tier characters).
    The healing probably won't make a big difference in most cases, especially since you shouldn't be aiming for Gale. She has good damage, but her catching would have to be better for her to be in S tier with that.

    BM is probably the best duelist in the game in a 1v1 situation. This character also has the ability to escape in combos using shadowstep, has gap closers, delays, high damage, lifesteal, etc.

    TT is very strong and it can be seen more the smaller the map is. He provides a very strong map presence and can control the map if used right. While having a superarmor bubble, he also has bombs and other artillery that can make it hard to approach a TT.
    I'm not fully familiar with how these characters are supposed to be played (as I don't play them and haven't seen much high-level gameplay of them), but Evacuation can be avoided a good amount of the time by most characters by just not hitting his back more than what's absolutely necessary. Gap closers aren't all that uncommon, and his notable delays are his Transcendence 100 MP (which was nerfed, and now is not as good as Chaser Sword), Giga Drive, and Bloody Accel (two skills that are above 100 MP tier, so they can't be used too often due to their cost and cooldown). Also, I'm not sure BM's default combo damage is exceptional; he has to spend MP to deal good damage, while building it with attacks that are not particularly powerful (I may be wrong about this part).

    As for TT, I don't believe Tactical Field is good in 1v1. I actually don't know exactly how to describe his weaknesses, though.

    ST is seriously not that big a threat and with the conditions you placed, i expect very little damage to come from this ST. idk why thats even at S.

    CN i feel isn't at S form as she was before. There were parts of her that were tweaked and the mc nerf effected all eves. Although she has a higher base amount of power with the conditions you placed than the other two eves, she doesnt deserve to be S tier.
    I'm under the impression you may not understand what makes the S tier characters S tier, or don't know what efficient gameplay with them looks like. Their neutral is extremely hard to contest, and the advantage they gain from one catch makes the match almost impossible for just about anyone below them to win.


    I take too long to type these posts sometimes..

  4. #14
    Elysion Navigator
    Mar 2011
    Out searching...
    11,249
    CrA has the ultimate kit of Iron Body's and Red Aura SA that can be used while being hit. With ERP added, it becomes even more dangerous as CD can make the uptime very high. They also have a healing ability, a ton of passives, gap closer, a skill to prevent mb, damage for just being next to them, and high damage overall.
    Iron Body and Annihilation Aura does not automatically make Crimson Avenger good enough to beat any of those S tiers consistently.

    I laugh that you think CA is on the same level as this monster.

    Mr does 40-60% of your health in 3 buttons that are 50-60% MP refunded and not MP breakable.

    Never say that again.

    CA has one gap closer that's relevant against these characters.

    She is never getting the MP to do that unless she somehow gets the first catch.

    CA is not getting the first catch consistently against ST, because ST starts with Lockon Stratos.
    CA is not getting the first catch consistently against YR, because YR starts the game with Absorption Nova or Highspeed in her pocket after a few converts.
    CA is not getting the first catch consistently against IP, because he's freaking Chung and Chung gets the first catch against CA nearly all of the time because you have no answer for >>^X at low MP at the start of the match.
    CA is not getting the first catch at all against CN, because CN starts the game with a delay catch (Atomic Shield).

    Oh yea... all of these characters do enough damage to the point where you don't want to tank them (CN,ST,IP) or they just have multiple stupid recatching buttons that are very easy to use and connect with and very hard to avoid (IP,YR).

    CA is nowhere near S. Hell at most she'd be A. The very end of A.

    CN i feel isn't at S form as she was before. There were parts of her that were tweaked and the mc nerf effected all eves. Although she has a higher base amount of power with the conditions you placed than the other two eves, she doesnt deserve to be S tier.
    Even with all those nerfs CN still does literally the exact same thing she did before.

    BM is probably the best duelist in the game in a 1v1 situation.


    This is what happens when people watch too much Sword White.
    ST is seriously not that big a threat and with the conditions you placed, i expect very little damage to come from this ST. idk why thats even at S.
    I'm pretty dang sure she still does at least 35-45% with this.

  5. #15
    Elder Citizen
    Oct 2012
    316
    Akaius, if CN is S tier for her neutral mc>delay> >>x, CBS can do the same wih mc> eh > >>x. Her eh is up very often so imagine RoF but more often. I would imagine shes at D because she needs gear to bring out the rest of her strengths or she will feed too much mana. But my point here is I feel CN shouldnt be S just for the reason.

    And for those who are defending CrA and BM, i understand where you guys are coming from, my POV of them is as is because at super high level play where everyone is pros and geared to the bone, those two chars become the most abusive because they are able to capitalize on their escapes for free catches as well as being tanky enough to soak damage, while being able to deal a lot of damage in relatively little time. This is especially important in the current state of the game where 1 catch can net one kill. Being able to survive all while escaping combos while being hit and capitalizing on the escape through the use of an SA or awakening can net a catch. CrA is dangerous in this aspect because she can stop MB's from happening for a set time. Also with the right setup, a CrA can have a superarmor ability up every few seconds, which barely leaves time for another catch. RIP if your character naturally gives a lot of mana.

    Although I know this tier list bases the characters off their spar gear at +7, i cant help but feel the injustice of these two characters being ranked so low since they can become so broken in the right hands with the right setups.

  6. #16
    Elysion Navigator
    Mar 2011
    Out searching...
    11,249
    And for those who are defending CrA and BM, i understand where you guys are coming from, my POV of them is as is because at super high level play where everyone is pros and geared to the bone, those two chars become the most abusive because they are able to capitalize on their escapes for free catches as well as being tanky enough to soak damage, while being able to deal a lot of damage in relatively little time. This is especially important in the current state of the game where 1 catch can net one kill. Being able to survive all while escaping combos while being hit and capitalizing on the escape through the use of an SA or awakening can net a catch. CrA is dangerous in this aspect because she can stop MB's from happening for a set time. Also with the right setup, a CrA can have a superarmor ability up every few seconds, which barely leaves time for another catch. RIP if your character naturally gives a lot of mana.

    Although I know this tier list bases the characters off their spar gear at +7, i cant help but feel the injustice of these two characters being ranked so low since they can become so broken in the right hands with the right setups.
    You do know enhancements don't work at all in sparring channel right? if you have 0 add damage and a +11 weapon you do the exact same damage as having no weapon on.


    How are you tanking that buddy o-o

    "In the right hands with the right setups" this still happens to you.

  7. #17
    Feita Knight
    Apr 2011
    Making a CN in Nasod Foundry
    1,190
    CN i feel isn't at S form as she was before. There were parts of her that were tweaked and the mc nerf effected all eves. Although she has a higher base amount of power with the conditions you placed than the other two eves, she doesnt deserve to be S tier.
    Increased resource gain from queen of vengeance, 500% single hit dmg on >>x with 0 KD and it prevents guard, Evacuation, or any other passive, >>^zx has a mp cost now, but didn't decrease it's spammability, Tesla Shock w/ increased range is a ridiculous ez catch when core is up, Extreme Cutting still nukes and only has 1 hit, passive crit buffs and her normal buff is a 10% atk boost which makes raid weps even more broken (10% = 2300 mag atk for me), photon blink and core shield are way too quick w/ their frames, 5% heal every 30 sec, and atomic shield delay catch for 90 MP.

    I might be forgetting something, but I pretty much hit the main points.
    The most recent nerfs barely did anything, and didn't address her most glaring balance issues.

    Essentially, in a fight, even in the unlikely event that CN doesn't get the first catch, she can still mp break sooner than most other chars due to her mp gain passive, and recoup the loss w/ mp convert.
    Against the majority of the cast, she can simply clock w/ code recovery and mp convert.
    >>x is the most broken move in the game, becoming even more dangerous w/ the wind enchantment.
    It has an insane dmg:hit ratio, feeding very little while dealing massive dmg, and can be looped.
    After use, the opponent will have lost ~30-40% of their HP, have very little or no MP, while CN will have perhaps 100-150 mp and possibly awk, not to mention an atomic shield okizeme.
    >>^zx is a neutral that is very difficult to contest w/ lingering hitboxes and long hitstun.
    Though it costs 4 mp each cast, it doesn't affect it's spammibility w/ CN's mp advantages

    I've been a CN main since S2, and I can say with confidence that she's definitely broken right now, and I hate it.
    Every win feels empty and unsatisfying, not to mention boring.
    Of course, if you don't believe me, you're welcome to fight me any time.

  8. #18
    Feita Knight
    Dec 2015
    1,356
    Why is BM so high?
    I don't feel like BM has anything that puts him above the C tiers.
    - no cheap delay catch
    - only horizontal catches
    - no oki potential aside from GD and BA which cost 175 and 250mp respectively
    even with 100 erp mp cost GD is 92 mp only with reversed and has 30s cd
    - BM requires more mp for a good dmg combo than a break costs
    - even then his normal damage compared to GrM or DW for example is nothing special
    - no clocking ability
    - no break preventing
    - BM's neutral game is the only slightly above average thing he has

    I honestly don't feel like BM deserves to be above the other C tiers

  9. #19
    Hamel Guardian
    Apr 2012
    3,472
    Akaius, if CN is S tier for her neutral mc>delay> >>x, CBS can do the same wih mc> eh > >>x. Her eh is up very often so imagine RoF but more often. I would imagine shes at D because she needs gear to bring out the rest of her strengths or she will feed too much mana. But my point here is I feel CN shouldnt be S just for the reason.
    CN's >>X is completely different from the other Eves' >>X; it does almost twice the total damage in one hit instead of two, making it deal significantly more damage before the opponent gets the same amount of MP. Also, as a result of not having the explosion, it doesn't launch as high, making it actually usable without needing to be on the highest platform (though you still need space above you). Most importantly, CEm/CBS's >>X might not even be infinite.

    Also, Energetic Heart has a 25 second cooldown (37.5 second cooldown with Reversed, which is the better trait for PvP), and causes you to feed a lot more MP with electron balls (including >>X) and lasers for its duration.

  10. #20
    Ruben Villager
    Jun 2016
    180
    Akaius, if CN is S tier for her neutral mc>delay> >>x, CBS can do the same wih mc> eh > >>x. Her eh is up very often so imagine RoF but more often. I would imagine shes at D because she needs gear to bring out the rest of her strengths or she will feed too much mana. But my point here is I feel CN shouldnt be S just for the reason.

    And for those who are defending CrA and BM, i understand where you guys are coming from, my POV of them is as is because at super high level play where everyone is pros and geared to the bone, those two chars become the most abusive because they are able to capitalize on their escapes for free catches as well as being tanky enough to soak damage, while being able to deal a lot of damage in relatively little time. This is especially important in the current state of the game where 1 catch can net one kill. Being able to survive all while escaping combos while being hit and capitalizing on the escape through the use of an SA or awakening can net a catch. CrA is dangerous in this aspect because she can stop MB's from happening for a set time. Also with the right setup, a CrA can have a superarmor ability up every few seconds, which barely leaves time for another catch. RIP if your character naturally gives a lot of mana.

    Although I know this tier list bases the characters off their spar gear at +7, i cant help but feel the injustice of these two characters being ranked so low since they can become so broken in the right hands with the right setups.
    the only ways to increase your dmg is thru add. dmg crit dmg skill dmg and buffs (LK counter patience pasive, Tactical field, Destruction aura etc. (not things every char has the luxury of) and the only way to increase how long you survive is through red. dmg increases and red. dmg increases alone. This list is already assuming optimal stats when talking about anything. That being said, everything we've said so far takes the very stat prerequisites you're talking about (also assuming the players are as competent as needed to play their char as optimally as possible)

    and as for CN let me put things into perspective:
    game starts, CN immediately converts, uses atomic shield for its delay, and proceeds to do 70% of your hp in 1 catch. Something CBS can't do because her >>x does significantly less dmg than CN's and I'm not even sure that its an infinite
    then when you break with 0 resources (because tanking isnt an option for obvious reasons) and no bead, she just does the same thing, and you die. The only way to counter how CN fights you is to be able to RELIABLY bait early game delay catches. Something NOBODY IN THE CAST CAN DO, with like 1 or 2 exceptions

    Why is BM so high?
    I don't feel like BM has anything that puts him above the C tiers.
    - no cheap delay catch
    - only horizontal catches
    - no oki potential aside from GD and BA which cost 175 and 250mp respectively
    even with 100 erp mp cost GD is 92 mp only with reversed and has 30s cd
    - BM requires more mp for a good dmg combo than a break costs
    - even then his normal damage compared to GrM or DW for example is nothing special
    - no clocking ability
    - no break preventing
    - BM's neutral game is the only slightly above average thing he has

    I honestly don't feel like BM deserves to be above the other C tiers
    BM's normal dmg may not be as much as GrM's but it's very well comparable. His neutral isnt only slightly above avg, it's actually excellent. It's just not extraordinary like GrM/DC or absolutely absurd like IP/YR. Good enough to let him stand his ground against a good portion of the high tiers. His normal dmg is enough to do a decent number on anyone he catches at low MP, without needing even a single debuff, effectively anti-cancering a few characters. I'm going to refute the claim that BM can't clock because of core refund. While it does help him a LOT in neutral, it's prob safer and probably even more effective to take the 60+ mp you probably already have and just wait out the duration of core so you can get an easy Bloody accel, which makes not only his neutral many times more threatening, but his dmg. If you're willing to throw out a few actives, you can easily do between 50-70% of someone's health in a combo, having used BA. His reversal game is also great, considering if he ever gets an evac proc while in awk, that's pretty much a gauranteed BA if he's willing to run around for a few seconds

 

 

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