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  1. #31
    Wasn't Dullahan the small one with the platforms and Tyrant the ones with the teleporters?

    For the specific case. Have you tried to simply not approach? Some people get irritated by this and start chasing you. Was she really straight out clocking or did she actually attack, like with her spears? From what you said is look more like she was using a strategic position then actual clocking. Did you really never got her or did you just not do enough damage? Crimson Rose can do some mindgames with Backstep and your actives a basically free. But as I said, I comes down to a prediction game and if you are outgeared you will most likely lose. Nothing you can do instead of working on that gear.

  2. #32
    Sander Chieftain TheLordYuuma's Avatar
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    Remember, kids: not approaching is a bad idea when the opponent is at an HP advantage and deliberately keeps their distance.

  3. #33
    Ruben Villager Stellastrea's Avatar
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    @Hitotsuoboe
    So just to be clear, this whole argument started because you were too eager to shoot down other peoples' posts, for not being sophisticated enough or whatever, according to your own arbitrary standards. Now it happens that I (we) think your're wrong and you delivered it in a much less-than-friendly way. So of course the reply would reflect that.

    Onto the topic, there's nothing wrong with the advice being basic.
    1. It's only 3 lines, you can skim over it in 10 seconds and even if you knew everything there's nothing lost from it.
    2. To understand anything you need a combination of broader information along with specifics. The nature of a forum is that different people can provide different insights on each.
    3. This isn't just conceptual. Even if someone says they get it, it doesn't necessarily mean they really do, or are able to manifest it ingame. Who plays fps games but doesn't know how to "aim properly"? But oftentimes at low ranks the most valuable advice is indeed, "practice aiming better".
    4. When you talk to someone you don't know, it's basic practice to affirm the basics first. Who says you can't elaborate on it afterwards or concede that okay, it isn't the problem in this case? You don't ramble about the solution before even understanding what the problem is.
    5. And indeed, you see it led to a informative reply from the OP that would have never happened with your line of questioning:

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxkid View Post
    I'm gonna reply to these all at once. I don't use flashy combos because they're highly inefficient outside of sparring, especially considering z hits have pretty high kd even with pierce 2. I don't have a +11 or 12 like most of these other people do since I don't have a bottomless wallet to enhance everything sky high, so "1 combos" are sparse for me. And I wasn't dropping the combo, it was an Eve who (obviously) flies higher than I can reach cause they kept running away with convert and abusing QT and trans.

    At best for items I have +7 altera and a +10 RH weapon that I can't do as much as I would like with and starting to wonder if I shouldn't give in and work on sand blast instead.
    If it instead turned out they had full +7 sparring gear and the opponent was +12 then all your advice goes out the window because this is simply not a match you expect to win if the other person plays smartly. In this case, the big caveat would be, OP has to aim to outplay the opponent. Because simply trading for damage won't work.

    6. In case you forgot, Vaf has 40k+ wins and mains the exact character OP was having trouble against. Not sure why you would assume the worst and not think of any of the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitotsuoboe View Post
    Context is important. I will agree to the fact that I ended up saying some obvious things in that spiel... but the surrounding details and scope - emphasis - was constantly what I was building around. Not everything I said was universal, and sometimes could end up being counter to a goal a player has. (E.g. spending MP for an okizeme on LK while not being far off having Armageddon Blade ready)
    Indeed it is. I'm not criticizing you for your efforts to help other people at all. The problem is that based on what you've written, you don't have a good justification for looking down on other peoples' advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitotsuoboe View Post
    > You do want to do damage swiftly
    ...as you don't want the fight running for too long - your okizeme won't always be successful, and where okizeme fails, a new chance to clock comes forth.
    My goal isn't to embarass you or pick apart every little thing you say to show how wrong it is. I'll just elaborate this one out so you can get my point before.
    So your initial quote at face value is not redundant, but actually wrong. Because in some situations it's actually optimal to attack slowly on purpose.
    Spoiler:



    But your clarification just comes down to: "maximize the damage you do every catch". As opposed to what? The underlying idea is still simple. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just that of all people, you shouldn't be the one complaining about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitotsuoboe View Post
    Apologies for writing and talking the way I naturally do.
    Well we can leave this as a discussion for another time. I do have some thoughts about the way you write, and I've had them long before. But I'm not the kind of person who would have called out somebody who only focused on helping other people (emphasis on past tense).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitotsuoboe View Post
    ...so, now that you've come into the thread, would you actually care to say something to help out the OP?
    He can read what I've written here to see my perspective on what it means to give and receive advice.

  4. #34
    Let me play that game as well. \o/

    Quote Originally Posted by Stellastrea View Post
    1. It's only 3 lines, you can skim over it in 10 seconds and even if you knew everything there's nothing lost from it.
    If you skim it, it mans its not interesting or heedful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stellastrea View Post
    2. To understand anything you need a combination of broader information along with specifics. The nature of a forum is that different people can provide different insights on each.
    However, nobody who made such a statement ever asks about broader "broader information". People just made assumptions without information backing it up. At least ask for a screenshot of the gear, if you want to give advice on that. I think that is what subconsciously triggered Hitotsuoboe and I have to agree with him on that. However, I do disagree with some of his statements. For example I would always try to okizeme if possible and control of the flow of the match is much more important then damage output, e.g. staying at a HP and MP advantage. Not getting caught first is a key to that and its complete justified to be passiv at the beginning unless it's an Aisha.

    I skip the rest of the enumeration, because it basically repeating the first two things.

    Another example, why people need to be more specific is that video. What am I suppose to look at? What timestamps are important? Why are you posting it in the first lace? In general, you want to ask a specific quest to get a specific answer. Look at some famous Q&A Formats like Stack Exchange. They list being specific in their "How do I ask a good question?" page.

    Anyway, we are still talking about CR vs Clocks, right? Did you try using her different weapons?

  5. #35
    Ruben Villager
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    Advice criticism replies above === line, actual things for the thread's topic below that line

    @Stellastrea
    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Stellastrea
    @Hitotsuoboe
    So just to be clear, this whole argument started because you were too eager to shoot down other peoples' posts, for not being sophisticated enough or whatever, according to your own arbitrary standards. Now it happens that I (we) think your're wrong and you delivered it in a much less-than-friendly way. So of course the reply would reflect that.
    To clarify why I made my initial reaction: in my eyes, it looked like a good number of posts on the front page basically boiled down to saying "good luck" or some highly basic things that gave Fox no real ideas on how to proceed (first stated in post 21). I was frustrated because it appeared that no one was actually trying to be serious about helping out (as I noted in post 17). The level of "sophistication" didn't matter - the thoughts and their usefulness did. Apologies to anyone reading this for whom this was not actually the case.

    I will concede that my remark was probably a bit of an instigator, but I believe that your brother's post (post 20) was what really set the argument on its course, taking note of the post's pretty dismissive nature. I listed out my complaints on the nature of his advice (do note that I actually did find his third recommendation, once extended, decently useful) only to receive a number of personal attacks - a simple statement of "I just wanted to make sure people knew the basics" likely would have halted the dispute, which now has one more person's attention instead and even more ad hominem.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stellastrea
    Onto the topic, there's nothing wrong with the advice being basic.
    1. It's only 3 lines, you can skim over it in 10 seconds and even if you knew everything there's nothing lost from it.
    2. To understand anything you need a combination of broader information along with specifics. The nature of a forum is that different people can provide different insights on each.
    3. This isn't just conceptual. Even if someone says they get it, it doesn't necessarily mean they really do, or are able to manifest it ingame. Who plays fps games but doesn't know how to "aim properly"? But oftentimes at low ranks the most valuable advice is indeed, "practice aiming better".

    The problem is that based on what you've written, you don't have a good justification for looking down on other peoples' advice.
    Nothing gained, either, though, should the latter (in 1) be the case. I also like to assume people's competence - I think the basics would be no problem for the OP here. To me, they (the pieces of basic advice) looked like they assumed incompetence on the OP's part. The "broader information" should already be taken care of, and it's been evident that this is not a low-rank discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stellastrea
    5. And indeed, you see it led to a informative reply from the OP that would have never happened with your line of questioning:
    By incident, yes: the OP ended up commenting on what gear he/she had because of how general and unclear the statements were - it seemed that "enhance your gears properly" and "performing 1 combos" were taken as getting a high enhancement level. The posts could have been more specific and further described how to "enhance properly" and so forth, and likely still get some information on where the OP stood on that front. I see no difference in effectiveness, and take my question and comments on map bans as an example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stellastrea
    6. In case you forgot, Vaf has 40k+ wins and mains the exact character OP was having trouble against. Not sure why you would assume the worst and not think of any of the above.
    So having a high win count automatically makes you good at giving advice? This is also true regardless of the setups that led to those win counts?

    Also, there was no actual commentary that any non-Eve player could have given all the same.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stellastrea
    My goal isn't to embarass you or pick apart every little thing you say to show how wrong it is. I'll just elaborate this one out so you can get my point before.
    So your initial quote at face value is not redundant, but actually wrong. Because in some situations it's actually optimal to attack slowly on purpose.

    But your clarification just comes down to: "maximize the damage you do every catch". As opposed to what? The underlying idea is still simple. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just that of all people, you shouldn't be the one complaining about it.
    True, I did forget about tactics like cooldown stalling - your version of the summary is the better wording of it.

    Still, maximizing damage each catch is, as I referenced, not always the best idea either depending on what character you play and the situation. In the case of clocking, however, the situation means more necessity to focus on damage than normal.

    Furthermore, taking my words piecewise and out of place is very likely going to make them seem more general, when that wasn't ever their intent - again, context. Picking several pieces out of it and isolating them can end up doing everything possible to make words seem wrong. If anything, I should have probably brought my explanations of the parts into that initial post (though it would considerably lengthen it beyond what it already is).




    Quote Originally Posted by Stellastrea
    Well we can leave this as a discussion for another time. I do have some thoughts about the way you write, and I've had them long before. But I'm not the kind of person who would have called out somebody who only focused on helping other people (emphasis on past tense).
    Well, be warned: this is what's normal for me. I don't go out of my way to talk in this fashion.

    And, again, what I saw at first didn't seem to be people "helping". (If I misunderstood, sorry, but from the surface appearance of the first page, my patience had its limit.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Stellastrea
    He can read what I've written here to see my perspective on what it means to give and receive advice.
    ...that's... not the topic of the thread. That's the topic of the argument that's obstructing the thread.

    (I understand that I'm partially causing the argument, too, but it's mostly becoming self-defense and explanation on my part - I care more to see this thread actually be beneficial to Fox.)


    ================================================== =======

    Quote Originally Posted by NitrosRazril
    Wasn't Dullahan the small one with the platforms and Tyrant the ones with the teleporters?
    That's exactly right.

    Quote Originally Posted by NitrosRazril
    For the specific case. Have you tried to simply not approach? Some people get irritated by this and start chasing you.
    If it's the case of a clocking class, however, trying that very easily backfires. The opponent can just remain calm and gather resources while you aren't nearby. In the case of Eves, this could lead to all manner of trouble (e.g. CN's Atomic Shield or one of CBS' delay catches). Yuuma's point about how Fox was at a health disadvantage while this was happening doubles up on the issue of playing passively - you'd be having both clocking and the timer swiftly worsen the situation.

    *Might respond to more later*
    It's the everyday life... (Art credit goes to yukkiro~) | Herbaon Guide here~ | Henir Organization Guide here~

  6. #36
    Ruben Villager
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    The only real advice here is:
    Git gud.

  7. #37
    Altera Savior
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    Nerf MP/Resource gain from clocking classes in PvP? Or no?

    guess there's no simple fix...meh.

    glad I play Iron Body class. >:3

    As rose, idk. There's gotta be some strengths that CR has over those clocking classes. I don't know

  8. #38
    Feita Knight Foxkid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf7 View Post
    Nerf MP/Resource gain from clocking classes in PvP? Or no?

    guess there's no simple fix...meh.

    glad I play Iron Body class. >:3

    As rose, idk. There's gotta be some strengths that CR has over those clocking classes. I don't know
    CR can't do anything worthwhile from far away. Her revolvers are pretty short range for a projectile (about as far as MEB goes iirc), her chain skills are linear and require absolute line of sight at about the same range of her revolvers (chain snatch had reduced effect on the suction so its very easy to get away from if not an oki), blood bullet requires actually catching them to regain health but its not worth it when you're at a gear disadvantage because the lifesteal will be worthless, and multi-headshot is easy to waste if the first shot misses (sometimes wonky delay on it).

    Even though a lot of people say CR is a braindead or easy class, she's pretty manual to play when you attempt more than Rising + CP + KP + XXXX (or >>x/<<x), especially when the other person can eat through her health pretty quickly.

    But it would be nice to reduce effective clocking so that passive play isn't times more rewarding than actively playing, but I get heat for saying anything anyways when it comes to balance.

    I don't like you. At all.

  9. #39
    I am pretty sure CR can use Muskets.

  10. #40
    Feita Knight Foxkid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NitrosRazril View Post
    I am pretty sure CR can use Muskets.
    I knew that was gonna come up, but I didn't know how to word it in an edit.

    But the musket isn't that great for catching runners, partially because the range is just under base Ciel's bullets, and the kd value is almost as high as her kicks without valkyrie/freya passives when using it, even with pierce if it's not proc'ing enough. (is it proc'ing or proccing?)

    I don't like you. At all.

 

 

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