1. #11
    Elder Citizen
    Jul 2015
    256
    I mainly comes down to outsmart them. There isn't really anything I can recommend, as it depends on the situation. Just make sure you actually have MP to do something. Prioritize the next catch over damage, although you should always do that.

    In theory, a non-clock cannot win against a clock. Luckily nobody is perfect, people make mistakes.

  2. #12
    Ruben Villager
    Sep 2015
    193
    Learn to 1 combo people. Burn through your skills every time you get a catch, no flashy combo or needless x drops.
    enhance your gears properly
    don't drop your combo
    catch better
    やれやれ。。。 telling Fox to merely play better or get equipment beyond pragmatic possibility isn't going to help at all. One's insanely general and contributes nothing but implied insults; the other can seldom be done.



    As for some ideas I might throw in...

    Nitros did make a good pair of points, firstly.

    I mainly comes down to outsmart them. Just make sure you actually have MP to do something. Prioritize the next catch over damage, although you should always do that.
    In this kind of situation, you'll want to be attacking your opponent as much as possible so they don't have the opportunity to gather resources freely. You do want to do damage swiftly, certainly, but once they mana break, you need to have some method to restart the offense - you'll want to conserve some of your mana for that purpose. The last thing you want to be giving a clocking class is time to recuperate - burning everything you have in one set of attacks can very easily backfire if you can't follow up.

    You also need to be watching the opponent's patterns, and how they're using their character. You may also want to consider studying the Eve classes in question, or any others that are causing you problems, in order to understand what mobility they have. If you can comprehend what the opponent keeps trying, you stand a far better chance of making a good prediction and catching them off guard. Furthermore, if you know the capabilities of the opponent's class, you can also learn what moves/movements they have that are committal and when punish opportunities can arise.



    You made mention of an Eve using Queen's Throne and flying up high. In this case, the thing to remember is that the Eve will only ever be able to diagonally dash upwards once (unless it's a CN that used her Code: Recovery, but this effect has a finite duration of 10 seconds and a cooldown of 30 seconds). You might have to consider waiting out Queen's Throne at times (since CN gets unlimited horizontal air dashes during it), but otherwise, you may consider waiting somewhere below where the Eve is flying, and wait for a point where she has exhausted her air dashes and is forced to land.

    In a more general situation of people running, you might consider modifying your stats a bit to have higher movement and jump speeds. You might lose a bit of your offensive stats doing this, but the higher speeds let you get to and catch your targets more often, that differential will be more than made up for. There's no good in attack power that can't be put to use.



    It's a brutal situation to be put in... but I hope some of these thoughts can help out.

  3. #13
    Feita Knight
    Dec 2015
    1,356
    The ideal scenario would be getting an early catch and having perfect okizeme untill the match ends.

    In reality you have to play a spacing game and hope your opponent messes up. If they are patient enough there is nothing you can do though. You will just get poked to death.

  4. #14
    Bethma Guard
    Jun 2014
    627
    hit them enough so you have hp lead and then run better then them.

    should be easy as a crimson rose lol....

  5. #15
    Guardian
    Mar 2014
    ?! ?! ?! ?! ?! ?!
    7,610
    やれやれ。。。 telling Fox to merely play better or get equipment beyond pragmatic possibility isn't going to help at all.
    telling him situational hypotheticals doesn't do much either here. you have no other option vs. this than to just go in and do whatever. if you lose, ok well, you lost on paper anyway. if u win, you outplay'd them, so you won i guess.

    it isn't exactly rocket science, and none of wat was said is outright wrong.

  6. #16
    Hamel Guardian
    Dec 2014
    Commencing the Cromwell invocation.
    3,035
    やれやれ。。。 telling Fox to merely play better or get equipment beyond pragmatic possibility isn't going to help at all. One's insanely general and contributes nothing but implied insults; the other can seldom be done.
    That's how I dealt with them anyway. This run and clock thing has always been a thing long before. Not to mention many Crimson Roses I bumped into were also having many "get out of jail free" cards and very hard to keep in a combo and playing poking as effectively as the CN OP mentioned. The CN I could manage to catch often stay caught, not super armor and flying away as much as Crimson Roses.

  7. #17
    Ruben Villager
    Sep 2015
    193
    telling him situational hypotheticals doesn't do much either here. you have no other option vs. this than to just go in and do whatever. if you lose, ok well, you lost on paper anyway. if u win, you outplay'd them, so you won i guess.

    it isn't exactly rocket science, and none of wat was said is outright wrong.
    However, if a lot of those situations can actually arise, and specifically try to describe the issue at hand, then the opinions might end up having some worth in aiding with Fox's troubles. While it is true that a lot of the things that were stated were valid... a factual statement isn't necessarily a helpful statement.

    I guess my main complaint towards what I quoted earlier was that those statements didn't give any actual guidance or things to think about that could be considered during fights, or just weren't in the monetary means Fox had. I think the advice needed more direction than that if it was to actually be useful.

    Still...

    That's how I dealt with them anyway. This run and clock thing has always been a thing long before.
    If you can manage to overcome it through sheer experience and exposure, more power to you. People's ability to get that far vastly varies, though, thus why I wanted things to be a bit more specific - one person might get a methodology down through sheer practice, but another might keep struggling after the same amount of time without some form of direction (possibly a reason why Fox is asking for help in the first place - would it not be right to assume Fox has already tried several times to overcome it through effort?).

  8. #18
    Elder Citizen
    Jul 2015
    256
    The "wrong" thing about the equipment part is, that you still need to hit the opponent. It doesn't matter how geared you are, if you cannot hit your opponent, you will deal no damage. Also, if the person could just tank or outdamage the opponent, why ask the question in the first place? So while the "equipment answer" isn't wrong, it doesn't help with the current situation at hand, because that equipment does not exist. We can assume that most people are smart enough to know that better equipment means a higher chance of success. So that is not the answer they are searching for.

    The "play better" part is even worth, because that's exactly why somebody ask such a question. How to do this? The "situational hypotheticals" are much more helpful because you can apply them to different situation and learn form the results. The "insanely general" on the other hand does not differ in result per situation. As such you cannot learn anything from it. In other words, the later does not allow the player to "play better".

    In the end, to give advice I would need to see how the player plays. Then I can suggest him to try out certain things. However, reading your opponent is unfortunately nothing that can be taught.

  9. #19
    Sander Chieftain
    Sep 2015
    At Nemmy's feet
    4,323
    As should already have been mentioned somewhere, running tactics based on Code Recover and Queen's Throne are not without end. One costs 20 MP, the other at least 65 if your opponent is very lucky with their procs, per use, totalling 85MP/30s waste ~ 3 MP/s waste. This will slowly, but surely bring her to a point where QT is no longer available. MP Conversion is not really helpful for her in that situation, since it contributes ~ 2MP/s and costs health, which would put you at an advantage unless there is already a significant difference at the start of this. Also note, that any attack from her position costs additional MP.

    The one tactic that works against any class that utilises air mobility to their advantage while keeping out of range is to wait for them to come into range, but not immediately attack them. They usually have traps set up for you if you do so. A non-Eve example would be Freyja's grenades. Back to Eve, there is Spear Dive, which attacks you during landing. Trying to catch her during that would be a stupid idea. Of course, some opportunities of Hitotsuoboe's variant do arise, but Nemmy pilots should be aware of their eventual landing and usually construct their paths in a way that it is more or less safe. However, once she is down to three air dashes, her patterns should become observable and predictable in real time. Once it comes to that, you should be able to catch them while they're in air, intercept their landing like Hitotsuoboe proposed or stop them from taking off, whichever fits best in timing.

    The key point is to not let it irritate you enough to rush in blindly, but to see that this tactic is meant to irritate you and to study their behaviour, so that you
    1. don't get caught yourself
    2. see your own catching opportunities
    3. use them
    In short, it comes down to understanding your opponents and using your own tools to deal with them. As Rose or any other ranged character, the range of your guns are quite beneficial in that, as horizontal dashes do nothing to protect her from those and her vertical movement is limited. Intercepting her landing will prove to be a little harder, as you will need to calculate a more exact point to get a hit.

  10. #20
    Sander Chieftain
    Jan 2012
    Eve's luxury closet
    4,120
    やれやれ。。。
    any grudge from arena?

    I don't have much time to write an essay, summary is what I like
    if you translate my context as an insult but not an advice, then thats why you won't improve, like those CN pilots who play arena when she gets buffed, and quit arena right when she gets nerfed (poor CN...)

    Spoiler:

    get gears mean dont be lazy go get title and finished your socket + ID so you can pull out your damage on every catch, can tank when you got caught
    dont drop combo means force them to manabreak all the time
    catch better also mean try looking for an opening + pressure, recatch as much as possible


    貴方の決闘知識がまだまだですね、ちゃん練習をしています?

 

 

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