1. #21
    Ruben Villager
    Sep 2015
    193
    any grudge from arena?
    More annoyance at comments that, in my eyes, weren't contributing to solving the OP's problem in any shape or form.

    To take your explanation in that view:

    get gears mean dont be lazy go get title and finished your socket + ID so you can pull out your damage on every catch, can tank when you got caught
    dont drop combo means force them to manabreak all the time
    So basically, what any sane person in Arena would do in any situation? It's quite insulting to a person if you tell them to do what they already know how to do/are trying to do. People have common sense, and stating things like this only wastes their time.



    The earlier post, if it was a summary, was too much of one:

    catch better
    Again, this doesn't give the OP anything at all to focus on within the scope of catching. What you stated in the slightly more detailed summary is somewhat better:

    catch better also mean try looking for an opening + pressure, recatch as much as possible
    ...which is still highly general, but would be all right if you made the emphasis on recatching and pressuring the opponent more prevalent. Being concise is fine, but if you leave out vital details, people won't get the actual thoughts behind the summary.



    And in the end... save for the catching bit, how does these ideas directly help give some suggestions to what the OP is struggling with, aside from "play better"? I personally don't see it.

    We want to speak on the situation of fighting a clocking class, not every Arena fight to ever exist.

  2. #22
    Sander Chieftain
    Sep 2015
    At Nemmy's feet
    4,323
    More annoyance at comments that, in my eyes, weren't contributing to solving the OP's problem in any shape or form.
    You're wasting your time with someone, who does not want to contribute and instead just posts to make themselves feel good.

    So basically, what any sane person in Arena would do in any situation?
    You can only really apply this to the not dropping combos part, since quite a large number of sane people don't go to to their level of gear, which itself is a cause of insanity.

    And in the end... save for the catching bit, how does these ideas directly help give some suggestions to what the OP is struggling with, aside from "play better"? I personally don't see it.
    They don't, and they aren't meant to.

    We want to speak on the situation of fighting a clocking class, not every Arena fight to ever exist.
    We are not even really focussing on clocking classes either, but a specific kind of clocking. There are different kinds, which need to be handled differently, since their effects are different. We could in theory expand the current discussion to HP clocking, but clocking in general is a topic too big for any silver bullet. Though I guess most people already know how to deal with MP clocking, since it's much more prevalent.
    However, the thread – as it currently is – could be renamed "Hao 2 catch flying CN" without loss of generality.

  3. #23
    Feita Knight
    Apr 2012
    The 8th Circle
    1,509
    Sorry that the topic was a little vague. At the time I was kinda heated and wanted to minimalize anything that would be seen as pointless crying or whining.

    But to add details, the most noticeable difference was an obvious gear difference (on top of it was SS vs SSS), the CN running for Illipia twice to basically undo the few catches I could land on them, and forcing me to mana break with constant poking from 2(?) trans specials, QT, and photon blink.

    As I said in the 1 earlier post that my set is pretty average (I do have wedges in everything, but I'm still caught up in using add over max so my stats are more...46%(?) max and somewhere between 6600-7600 add depending on weapon and costume swaps. I also recently got el res so I had no help from that as a thing, and my speeds if I remember correctly are 16-26% attack and 19.92-23% move/jump, but they're pretty inconsistent.

    But for the course of the fight before I succumbed to irritation and forced no response to end the match, I tried what I could to catch them but CR doesn't have the tools to go as high as CN is allowed and the constant mana converts and sticking to the top platforms of Tyrant's since she can go across the map easier (since I KNOW they were ♥♥♥♥ing around and not being serious once) made for a really annoying chase. (But it didn't help that abusing Eve's >>x for the early match put me down to half before I could mana break before they just started running and poking)

  4. #24
    Elder Citizen
    Mar 2014
    250
    This is why the game should give a cooldown on how much this characters can fly. It makes pvping against characters like Add, Eve, Rose(the flying one, you know what i mean, if you main rose-Valkaryie should be the name), Ain. They should stop giving characters the chance of being airborne to stall or be able to scale platforms easily( this is another way of running to win a match). The close combat classes like Elsword, Elesis, Raven e.t.c are seriously getting tired catching this classes, and then we get unrewarded because a normal z catch is unsafe(have to stack awk for more delays to counter). Especially if they have superarmor on the air or slight skeptical iframes like Ara, because when i try to catch an airborne eve or ara with a z, they just stun me or hit me with core, and recatch. I won't be suprised if they bring another new class that can jump considerable high or stall like the other ones on the air. All this airborne characters over melee characters is so unfair regarding their lucky iframes or superarmor skills that comes with them.

    Now to the OP- you can't do anything than stall or get a lucky catch and hope the eve does not have more mp to clock and use a skill for delay to catch you, or awk. With the way eves stack awk + the use skills like- atomic shield for a recatch or spear burst when they are on top or near you. The only thing you can do is be ready, and have the required mp to time your skills perfectly. Please being aggressive won't help. I got an eve that kept using Atomic shield and awk for delays and kept stalling on the air to win her match+ after you lose a match. You get a constant repeat of fighting low ranks to gain 0%.

    This just comes down to one option- just do dungeons or other stuff. PvP is terribly bad now. As someone that really loves pvp. I hardly touch it again unless i egoboost D:. Being able to chase an eve 24/7 non stop, get an iframe rose, get an asura clocking hp, get an ain that keeps using fessil heiling, gets a rena that keeps balling with fungus while i cant manabreak+ fight 10 low ranks before fighting my rank is just brutal.

    But if your are ready to withstand this keep trying

  5. #25
    Sander Chieftain
    Jan 2012
    Eve's luxury closet
    4,120
    don't say ppl have common sense because each person's common sense aren't the same
    you don't even know this^

    my advices are super basic ones but many ppl don't care to work on those, that's why I came to remind them again
    if you don't care these, just forget that you will be able to do something else that makes your game play better

    also there is no any insult intention in my advices. so if you translate them as a result that's mean you are a person who always think negative

  6. #26
    Ruben Villager
    Jul 2015
    65
    And in the end... save for the catching bit, how does these ideas directly help give some suggestions to what the OP is struggling with, aside from "play better"? I personally don't see it.

    We want to speak on the situation of fighting a clocking class, not every Arena fight to ever exist.
    But "fighting a clocking class" is a strict subset of "every Arena fight to ever exist".
    So why do you make it sound like advice in the latter won't help with the former?

    Now why don't we look at your own advice...

    you'll want to be attacking your opponent as much as possible
    so they don't have the opportunity to gather resources freely
    You do want to do damage swiftly
    restart the offense
    watching the opponent's patterns
    understand what mobility they have
    making a good prediction and catching them off guard
    when punish opportunities can arise.
    waiting somewhere below where the Eve is flying
    So how does this match up with your little gem?

    So basically, what any sane person in Arena would do in any situation? It's quite insulting to a person if you tell them to do what they already know how to do/are trying to do. People have common sense, and stating things like this only wastes their time.
    Obvious basics like saving your mp and reading the opponent? check.
    Useless filler. "you'll want to be attacking your opponent as much as possible", as opposed to what, not attacking?
    Applicable for any situation? check.

    Only difference is, instead of simply reading 3 lines I have to trudge through a trashpile of whiny, thesaurus-picked words (which you always seem to love doing).
    So by your own proclamation, your own advice coupled with the way you write, is the biggest "waste of time".

  7. #27
    (ヽ´ω`)
    Mar 2011
    piglet my guy
    11,520
    Can you guys at least make comments without calling each other monkeys, thanks.

    Market thread || Code of Conduct || avi by Y0na

  8. #28
    Ruben Villager
    Sep 2015
    193
    The first section, above the line of === symbols, responds to the arguments about advice quality. The second section, below that line, contains suggestions for the OP that I have not yet stated. If you do not wish to see the ongoing quarrel, please feel free to jump past the line to the recommendations.

    @TheLordYuuma
    Spoiler:
    You can only really apply this to the not dropping combos part, since quite a large number of sane people don't go to to their level of gear, which itself is a cause of insanity.
    I will admit that this does go quite a bit into a person-by-person basis, since some people seek to focus more on their abilities by using weaker gear, not always caring about their win/loss records. On the other hand, if a person is focused on winning and is serious about trying to progress in Arena, they'll very often understand that equipment is a vital part of climbing the ladder. (Fox has already noted that they have this concern in mind.)

    We are not even really focussing on clocking classes either, but a specific kind of clocking. There are different kinds, which need to be handled differently, since their effects are different. We could in theory expand the current discussion to HP clocking, but clocking in general is a topic too big for any silver bullet. Though I guess most people already know how to deal with MP clocking, since it's much more prevalent.
    However, the thread – as it currently is – could be renamed "Hao 2 catch flying CN" without loss of generality.
    I suppose these statements are rather true. I guess I had a partial focus on the title of the thread, causing me to a bit more general. Still, part of me does have concerns that if the OP is struggling with MP clocking from a CN, similar situations (e.g. a Storm Trooper attempting the same) might also be worrying... but I probably should be sticking to the specific case given for now. Anything further can be saved for a point where Fox asks for the focus to be expanded.



    @eccnecc
    Spoiler:
    my advices are super basic ones but many ppl don't care to work on those, that's why I came to remind them again

    also there is no any insult intention in my advices. so if you translate them as a result that's mean you are a person who always think negative
    That's my complaint: the fact that the advice is so basic.

    I didn't think them to be dealing with the specific subject at hand (clocking) due to their very basic nature, and they looked as though they presumed the OP wasn't already dealing with them. In my eyes, it can come off as abrasive when it seems like you, per your words, think the person in question doesn't know what he or she is doing (regardless of what you actually think of the person's abilities).

    I suppose it's ultimately up to the OP and others that read this thread that determine things worth... feel free to call me judgmental for being irritated at how little direction I saw in the opening posts.

    The number of personal attacks is also getting quite silly. (Two, three in one post, making up half the post?) I'm concerned with what advice the OP is being provided with, and that advice's quality. Targeting the individual rather than criticizing the thoughts only further derails the thread.



    @Stellastrea (contains explanations on some of my earlier recommendations)
    Spoiler:
    But "fighting a clocking class" is a strict subset of "every Arena fight to ever exist".
    So why do you make it sound like advice in the latter won't help with the former?
    Again, the basic nature of the advice I saw led me to think that it would provide very little guidance to the OP. Something general can end up having very few connections to something specific, and in turn be of very little use.



    Now why don't we look at your own advice...
    ...except let's focus on it all with its actual set of contexts in mind, rather than taking it all out of its surroundings.

    you'll want to be attacking your opponent as much as possible
    so they don't have the opportunity to gather resources freely
    AKA you can't afford to play passively - aggression is a necessity if you're going to succeed. I suppose it's a tad obvious of a point, though.

    You do want to do damage swiftly
    ...as you don't want the fight running for too long - your okizeme won't always be successful, and where okizeme fails, a new chance to clock comes forth.

    restart the offense
    ...but if you don't have the resources to start a solid okizeme, those chances of the opponent escaping are far higher. In the situation of fighting a clocking class, killing quickly and constantly recatching becomes more vital than it usually would be in a standard battle. In a normal fight, your opponent just gets away and has a chance to fight back, whereas a clocking opponent can both escape and get a chance to rebuild.

    Obvious to an extent, but I felt like the "kill it fast" aspect needed to be emphasized.

    watching the opponent's patterns
    understand what mobility they have
    making a good prediction and catching them off guard
    when punish opportunities can arise.
    If you aren't catching a running opponent, you want to be looking at what ways they're using to get away, and learn from them. If you don't understand a character's movement all too well or can't adapt swiftly, and that character can clock, you could be set up for a rather nightmarish situation.

    waiting somewhere below where the Eve is flying
    A specific recommendation to the situation. Not everyone would always have reason to do this (e.g. being worried about Spear Burst or etc. and waiting for her to be grounded instead), but in this case, risks worth staying away from her would probably be outweighed by the problems found in not approaching.

    So how does this match up with your little gem?
    Context is important. I will agree to the fact that I ended up saying some obvious things in that spiel... but the surrounding details and scope - emphasis - was constantly what I was building around. Not everything I said was universal, and sometimes could end up being counter to a goal a player has. (E.g. spending MP for an okizeme on LK while not being far off having Armageddon Blade ready)

    Only difference is, instead of simply reading 3 lines I have to trudge through a trashpile of whiny, thesaurus-picked words (which you always seem to love doing).
    So by your own proclamation, your own advice coupled with the way you write, is the biggest "waste of time".
    Apologies for writing and talking the way I naturally do.

    Again, it's not me who's the final judge, but I think having lots of direction and targeted thoughts (becoming lengthy in exchange) is better than a very short summary that completely lacks direction and any supporting thoughts.

    To take your brother's first and second posts in that sense, he said to "catch better", which has almost no context nor guidance. In his second, he started to mention pressure and recatching as priorities, which were far more relevant to the OP's concerns, and (at least to me) far more useful. The second post gave the OP something specific to actually focus on.



    ...so, now that you've come into the thread, would you actually care to say something to help out the OP?



    ================================================== ============================

    The fact that Tyrant's Arena was the map in question for this, Fox...

    May I ask what maps you currently have set as your four banned maps for Arena queue? Maps like Tyrant's Arena and Sander Oasis, which are expansive and feature unique ways to grant players mobility around the map, are prime locations for evasive clocking strategies to be used.

    You may want to consider setting Tyrant's and co. among your banned maps, if they aren't already among them - give your opponents smaller maps and fewer ways to get about, and they'll have a more difficult time circumventing your efforts to attack them. (These maps are also usually banned in community-driven tournaments, as well, so you're not really missing a whole lot by excluding them.)

    If you want to specifically tackle Eves, you might also consider banning maps where the Eve could very easily switch heights (e.g. Wally's Castle Centre - Eve can go from the ground floor to the platform three tiers up with little effort).

  9. #29
    Feita Knight
    Apr 2012
    The 8th Circle
    1,509
    May I ask what maps you currently have set as your four banned maps for Arena queue?
    Both Sander maps, Dullahan (the one with the unneeded teleports for foreground and background), and.....I'll let you know when I can recall the name again, but its another expansive map as well.

    The thing being however is I'm still at the mercy of random assortment though I do favor the smaller maps (unless fighting an Elkid because its harder to time out their stoic without getting caught in the process) over the mid size and large maps.

    I seriously would've put up a video asking what could've happened where and where, though I'm assuming it would count as defamation.
    Spoiler:
    and I'm unable to use the in-game recorder on my laptop (insert and print screen are the same key and don't separate for some reason) since I can't use my main program anymore.


    But I don't run into many eves all that often the few times I do arena and usually if I do it ends up being CBS or CE (usually spammy ones at that).

  10. #30
    Ruben Villager
    Sep 2015
    193
    Both Sander maps, Dullahan (the one with the unneeded teleports for foreground and background), and.....I'll let you know when I can recall the name again, but its another expansive map as well.

    The thing being however is I'm still at the mercy of random assortment though I do favor the smaller maps (unless fighting an Elkid because its harder to time out their stoic without getting caught in the process) over the mid size and large maps.
    I can definitely understand the two Sander maps being there, due to the extra mobility features within them (especially Oasis, given its size). In the specific case of Eves, though, Sandstorm could actually help with some forms of aggression, as the tornadoes can let you match the Eve's ability to get to superior heights.

    The map with the teleporters is Tyrant's Arena (though Durahan Coliseum is also a Feita map, so I can understand the mix-up), and makes sense to get rid of due to the sheer number of options a clocking player has to evade an attacker with.

    As to the remaining ones... Judge's Heart would likely pose the most problems due to the cross-country launch pads. This would make it quite easy to wait on one side until an attacking player approaches, then launch across and make the attacker guess which elevation a player's gone to. While Eve's mobility might not be as big a factor here as in others, the launchers help out evasion so much that that difference hardly even matters.

    Regarding Hope Bridge... the main problem is the Eve's ability to transition between upper and lower platforms without too much issue. However, sticking to the upper platforms could be rather limiting for someone trying to get away from you, as you could assault any attempt to change height, and only have to worry about horizontal movements.



    Fighting clocking Eves, I would personally think that Tyrant's Arena and Sander Oasis would immediately be ones to keep out. I would remove Judge's Heart, as well, due to the reasons I listed above. Hope Bridge and Garpai Sandstorm, however, are ones where I'm on the fence - one lets you keep some restriction over Eve's movement, and the other lets you keep up with it.

    Which maps to strike out from here, based on the arenas' sizes and mobility options, paired with the abilities of the class you're facing (making places like Wintery Velder and Wally's Castle Centre potential trouble locations)... all of that is best left to your preferences and capabilities.

 

 

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