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  1. #21
    Bethma Guard
    Sep 2011
    Library
    671
    I gotta ask how you do this. CEm is self sustainable 'cause of the summon attacks' mp gain. But with CBS spamming skills left and right, without any of them actually giving substantial mana (with GS having only 40+ mp gain), how would one keep their mana pool up if one doesn't use pots. I've only barely kept it up with >>ZX and hoping for Alterasia procs.
    I'm pretty sure anyone using CBS can actually do it with some ERP into her. I use Perkisas +9 with random Heroic pieces (no MP cost down or Wisdom which would probably help even further). KOG had a nerf done to Phantom Sword back then which lowered its proc rate by half. I'm pretty sure they adjusted that for CBS who does an insane amount of multi-hit. However, it doesn't really affect the first hit of anything you do. I got the idea from CN's PvE (considering I had played her first 6x over) to spam >>X for MP sustain since it's already made to partially refund. I really only go dry if my team is killing everything way too quickly or the mob isn't in super armor. That's where I instead just >>^Z over and over since pushing mobs and hitting with Electronic Fall or something is better than singling them out via EH-boosted skills. If I gave up the 15% magical attack boost and sustain from EH, then I could just go amplify, but that usually hurts more than helps these days.

    Also, CEm got a combo way back called ZZXX that regens MP like crazy without needing to do XXZ. I'd have taken Magic Necklace off regardless because it doesn't gain much more MP even with the darn necklace. The passive MP gain climbs up to +3 which easily covers what Magic Necklace would do. Summons gaining MP is just icing on the cake.

    The nom-nom that CBS needs is proper commands which nearly ALL characters have. Most Z commands are already good with Aisha (except DW), Rena, Eve, Chung, and Rose's being the either range-deprived or slow commands (Eve's and Chung's are slow). Then Renas have good X commands (except WS, who I heard barely gains mp from them) just the same Rose simply has ridiculous X commands. Aisha's X-commands aren't great in PvE either. Eve's is slow, but CEm doesn't really care about that stuff, and CN is a mystery to me. Chung has a slow Z-command but can gain tons of mana with ZZZX, so that slowness is compensated by being able to gain mp (well DC might just use guns). The only characters who would have a problem getting mp via commands are WS, CBS and CN(?) and the Aisha's (not too sure about this, but from what I've experienced it's bad). So it really boils down to commands. I've used every character, but not every class, so I have at least a bit of info about everyone's base commands.

    CBS' need for a good command shines more in Henir Challenge ('cause no consumables), 'cause it'll be visible how much lesser she can spam skills (which is why, I'm wishing for good commands in 3rd job). People just outright forget about command attacks when thinking of PvE and just assume that everyone will just spam pots.
    I've used every class in the game except for Ain pretty much (I'll work on him later regardless). Going to spoiler since this is all kinda extra to assist my point and not that necessary.

    Spoiler:
    I'm not sure why you'd note Chung having slow commands, as that's only applicable when he has no attack speed. He's slightly slower yes, but not by much. The problem stands when it comes to TT who has no other method of playing the game other than Siege spam. It was worse before since it was an auto-target without a hitbox. His MP gain is entirely projectile reliant, which means it's not that good unless he's hitting 2+ targets. ZZZX is his only compensation. If anything, you should've mentioned Lu who has no compensation except Unlimited Push Works. Hate playing with Lu-centric players for that reason. It's their only way of gaining MP on her quickly and is pretty unsafe. Ciel counteracts that but it's important to note the nuance.

    Then we have CN who anyone who has actually read her passives will know that she gets +150% MP gain after Queen's Throne (which has Regenerating on it) and has Reversed Trait on Iron Scraps. There's literally no MP issue to be had if you took the right traits.

    Wind Sneaker is still a Rena and has access to arrows and Siege. You don't wanna use her Nature's Force to boost kicks if you're not actually going to be using kicks, or you'll dumpster your MP gain for no reason. I have seen way too many WS do this for no apparent reason when she was mega popular. EM is Meditate reliant but still has ZZXX~X to do what she needs to do, it's just that she has no answers to super armored targets like Eve does. VP has a 3-bead awaken passive to grant her huge MP and heavily inflates the value of CRP/Mana Elixir, so her mana issues after a bit of MP cost down are meaningless due to Tenacity-based builds.


    Think you mean "shows" and not "shines," but regardless, that's the one place where bosses are variable and you need gear to do Challenge to begin with. KOG has consistently attempted to make it harder and harder over time and the only characters who really got screwed are Miho reliant for their damage or called EM. GA still smashes the mode and gear still smashes the mode. If you're really stingy about MP, drop Heavy Trait from both Linear Divider and Giga Stream. There is nothing wrong with that if you feel it's necessary. It's less damage initially but higher overall damage in a dungeon since you'll be spamming them with the lower CD and lower cost.

    With everything involved, I am dead serious when I say CBS has had it worse ages ago. When EH was at its strongest with 30% cost refund, I didn't use potions in any dungeon. It got halved but surprise surprise, nothing really changed much. Long-term sustain was hit more than the general sustain due to high max MP. Easily covered with Mana Conversion and allows you to eventually proc pet Encourage as long as you don't get smacked too hard, meaning I can use a Velder neckie instead. CBS was literally my favorite character when her Transcendence first hit since it quite literally solved every possible issue she had. Including combos due to the >>X thing I mentioned. Needles hit so hard that I'd just >>^X or >>X regardless and then >>^ZX to keep moving with multiplied Needles, only skipping Electron Ball commands when I felt my >>^ZX was enough. She's harder to play now but nothing I do on her has really changed much compared to before.

  2. #22
    Ruben Villager
    Nov 2013
    7
    I actually stopped playing with a Magic Necklace on CEm and CBS because they sustained well enough after some ERP. I'm very used to playing around having Bravery skills and honestly there are characters like Elemental Master who are absolutely garbage at mana gain outside of a specific source (Meditate in her case). Mana Conversion is extremely fast in comparison and gives a nice cost decrease regardless of RNG.

    Enlighten me how you are "sustaining" you 10 sec cycle of noodles and EH. Just for the sake of "buffing", you are not even using any other skills.

    I'm pretty sure anyone using CBS can actually do it with some ERP into her.
    I fail to see how you can say "just invest some ERP into mana cost and you will be fine" for CBS's problems and yet suggest that EM, an equally MP heavy caster, cannot rely on the same method. You suggest that mana conversion is a far superior skill for when it cost you 15% of your life every 7 secs for 60 mana and 20% chance of mana reduction. It will cost you (no matter what RNG) at least 2 and 1/2 mana converts to use 1 noodle, that is ~ 18 secs and 37% life. All these points really makes me want to conclude that you can just not wear a mana necklace, invest some ERP and still be okay on EM. Just in case, I will ask a guildie about this, a very experienced EM player(Chickitta). ALthought I seriously doubt she will say it makes everything OK.

    You've essentially learned the game if you can keep everything managed correctly without decreasing your potential to do other things. That's why I think she's not doing too badly. If you wanted to complain about Energy Needles, you could've been clear and concise about it honestly. But if we're talking about CBS as a whole (which unfortunately is how you're presenting the topic), she's doing much better compared to where she's ever been kit-wise (even if not power-wise). The only flaw I see is that you lose out on extreme amounts of AoE since you can't access Amplify mode while in Fusion mode, forcing your best skills to be rather lackluster against clustered mobs. That's the only flaw I've ever found with her since Renewal.
    .

    Let me be clear. NOODLES IS NOT MY PRIMARY CONCERN. YOU are the one who went into extensive details about noodle, I merely pointed out that it was ONE of the skills nerfed that is apart of my transcendence passive. My points has always been CBS has been going down hill as a character, whose play style has been constantly pushed towards less rewarding play ( Spamming and chugging pots like a robot is not rewarding play) You may have confused noodles for the lv 90 trans passive when I said
    It is one thing to give up a few skills, it is an entirely other to give up a powerful tool given to a class that is the identity of the class's transcendence.
    My argument has always been: it is not good balance to incentivize players into using skills for transpassive, then nerfing those skills. It leaves players with a bad decision to either play like none trans characters or use what you know are sub-optimal skills. A rock and a hard place to put it simply.

    From reading all the points you have posted so far, it honestly feels like you are supporting my premise, while somehow compelled to make it feel like you are trying to disprove my point.

  3. #23
    Ruben Villager
    Nov 2013
    7
    Sorry to double post. I think I need to reinforce my point.

    Does CBS have any incentives to use attack commands (basic attacks) these days? I would argue that there is none, that is certainly not the case even a month ago. The only reason why most CBS players would even use the X button is for force field generation for noodles. Prior to this, using commands to attack mobs actually generates a huge amount of mana. Its Dark element procs, which has been massively gutted. I realize that DeathLapse has been making the argument that pretty much everyone just spams skills and chugs pots these days. It is a valid point, I firmly agree. However, not a lot of characters can just ignore all commands and solely spam skills and be the most effective things they can do.

    Here is where character understanding and maximization of damage comes from. Examples of this: Elsword and Elesis, going into their red or blue mode to maximize skill damage with the usage of their x and z commands, chung reloading different types of ammo for more powerful skills, Rose and her ecp system, Rena and her nature force, ETC. Sure some of these systems are more complex than others, but how much of this compares to CBS? For us, its is EH on? Awakened? Enough mana? Okays lets use everything until we are dry, drink a pot, then blow the rest... There is no longer decisions of choosing between each mode of ECS, there is little care for skill orders or a wide range of skills to use, there is little need to use any x or z buttons. The optimal way is to stack as many 300 mp bravery skills (which were all recently buffed for CBS, at the cost of really big nerfs to our actives and 200 mp or lower special actives) equip a bravery ring and go as nuts as your potions a.

    MY POINT, is that CBS are losing mana sustain (by either incentive to use basic commands or dark element) and complexity. AND it has been getting worse and worse over the years. At some point we have to say enough is enough, and make it known that this is not how CBS or any elsword character should be played. Because things are not going to get better at this point, there will not be more rewarding plays from understanding your character. Elsword, at its heart,a fighting game, and if you do not get better with your character the, then this game is as good as dead...

  4. #24
    Hamel Guardian
    Dec 2013
    闇の世界!? Nah.
    3,718
    Sorry to double post. I think I need to reinforce my point.
    There is an edit button~

  5. #25
    Ruben Villager
    Nov 2013
    7
    But I always wanted to be THAT guy...

  6. #26
    Hamel Guardian
    Dec 2013
    闇の世界!? Nah.
    3,718
    But I always wanted to be THAT guy...
    Don't, but no one can stop you so meh~

 

 

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