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  1. #11
    Bethma Guard
    Sep 2011
    Library
    671
    I acknowledge that renewal cbs has some serious flaws. In fact I was so looking forwards to renewal cbs since she was the second wave, and the first wave of Rena, Elsword, and Aisha were ridiculous OP during that time. But I think you will also agree that cbs renew bombed... HARD. I was much stronger in the pre-renewal than renewal stage. It took a long series of buffs to get her back during that period.
    But from what I was already seeing, the issue began on Renewal, not Transcendence. I didn't really care about CBS since CN was a major success and only played her later on. I still didn't really notice the issue myself because I wasn't a long-time CBS player. She just felt the same as everyone else, but with less damage. I seriously thought Energy Needles was to spread out DPS in exchange for that lesser burst.

    My point is that I feel constrained... I don't want to rely on Noodles all the time, its not a great skill atm if you do the math.
    I just literally press the button and ignore it while it's up. This version of Energy Needles lasts longer even if it does less damage than before. You used to have it up for a total of 9 seconds, while this one actually lasts past the CD. I actually can justify not having it on my trans slot anymore, though I keep it there from time to time for old time's sake. Though I'm not sure if others have had this behavior.

    CBS has no mana gain, and I don't think you would argue that this is a balancing flaw that is minor.
    I actually stopped playing with a Magic Necklace on CEm and CBS because they sustained well enough after some ERP. I'm very used to playing around having Bravery skills and honestly there are characters like Elemental Master who are absolutely garbage at mana gain outside of a specific source (Meditate in her case). Mana Conversion is extremely fast in comparison and gives a nice cost decrease regardless of RNG.

    I feel that things are bad, but the path is not going for the better. We should be improving flaws of things such as mana issues, reliance on braindead skills, and lack of decision making, not accepting it. We should be vocal about things that obviously are going down hill, not being silent because its how it had been for a while. I agree with alot of your points, but "not as bad as you think" is not how we should approach things that are not going to improve the gameplay. Don't you think so?
    Mana issues are shared by other characters and by endgame PvE with Heroic gear and ERP, you shouldn't be experiencing these mana issues you speak of. It's already meta to use mana elixirs or hardboiled eggs, which paired with high maximum MP on CBS makes it extremely easy to maintain your sustain. I'm so confident in not expecting to see mana issues that I don't use Magic Necklace on CBS anymore.

    Honestly I think there's a huge flaw with how people think of CBS. Energy Needles is only braindead because it killed literally everything if you were geared enough. Now that it doesn't, it's just another skill to add onto your rotations. It's a guaranteed decision to keep your buffs up. Aura skills from Eve, Aisha and Luciel have always been like that. We also have Queen's Throne, all of CEm's summons, Bloody Accel + Giga Drive, Armageddon Blade, Phantom Sword, Sword of Victory, Critical Sword, Airelinna, Sharpshooter Syndrome, Land Demolisher + Wonder Wall, Spell: Necromancy, Brutal Cutter + Shade Illusion, Force Field, Dead Hands, Bloodlust, Miracle Vision, Chain Powder, Robotics, Vertrauen Melodie. I might've missed some skills but still, CBS is not the only character who casts a buff type skill after it expires. Spamming skills mindlessly also can be awarded to CN and Iron Scraps, Juggernaut Buster on GrM, and so forth. CBS is not a special snowflake. She's pretty similar to how other characters play.

    You've essentially learned the game if you can keep everything managed correctly without decreasing your potential to do other things. That's why I think she's not doing too badly. If you wanted to complain about Energy Needles, you could've been clear and concise about it honestly. But if we're talking about CBS as a whole (which unfortunately is how you're presenting the topic), she's doing much better compared to where she's ever been kit-wise (even if not power-wise). The only flaw I see is that you lose out on extreme amounts of AoE since you can't access Amplify mode while in Fusion mode, forcing your best skills to be rather lackluster against clustered mobs. That's the only flaw I've ever found with her since Renewal.

  2. #12
    Feita Knight
    Jan 2016
    The Vast Unknown
    1,311
    I actually stopped playing with a Magic Necklace on CEm and CBS because they sustained well enough after some ERP. I'm very used to playing around having Bravery skills and honestly there are characters like Elemental Master who are absolutely garbage at mana gain outside of a specific source (Meditate in her case). Mana Conversion is extremely fast in comparison and gives a nice cost decrease regardless of RNG.
    I gotta ask how you do this. CEm is self sustainable 'cause of the summon attacks' mp gain. But with CBS spamming skills left and right, without any of them actually giving substantial mana (with GS having only 40+ mp gain), how would one keep their mana pool up if one doesn't use pots. I've only barely kept it up with >>ZX and hoping for Alterasia procs.

  3. #13
    Hamel Guardian
    Dec 2013
    闇の世界!? Nah.
    3,718
    So....after read most of this.....

    1. MP hungry CBS needs nom-nom to sustain PVE. That's the case for many classes. BH used to have a good AoF before they decreased debuff stacks and in-turn, decreased BH's natural MP gain by ~70%. Pots are necessary for all people to have anyway, characters need more if they want to spam skills.

    2. CBS Noodle fest is not entertaining. Well, you can try steering away from just Noodle fest and look for other things and put Noodle in but not as a MUST USE.

    3. Nerfing Noodles and other skills...when devs give you nerfs, you make lemonade. Still piloting nerfed classes and still running smoothly with a-litle more egg consumption.

    Noodles doing less is probably because the devs have tunnel-visioned that it's too OP against large stoic bosses they might introduce later~

  4. #14
    Feita Knight
    Jan 2016
    The Vast Unknown
    1,311
    1. MP hungry CBS needs nom-nom to sustain PVE. That's the case for many classes. BH used to have a good AoF before they decreased debuff stacks and in-turn, decreased BH's natural MP gain by ~70%. Pots are necessary for all people to have anyway, characters need more if they want to spam skills.
    The nom-nom that CBS needs is proper commands which nearly ALL characters have. Most Z commands are already good with Aisha (except DW), Rena, Eve, Chung, and Rose's being the either range-deprived or slow commands (Eve's and Chung's are slow). Then Renas have good X commands (except WS, who I heard barely gains mp from them) just the same Rose simply has ridiculous X commands. Aisha's X-commands aren't great in PvE either. Eve's is slow, but CEm doesn't really care about that stuff, and CN is a mystery to me. Chung has a slow Z-command but can gain tons of mana with ZZZX, so that slowness is compensated by being able to gain mp (well DC might just use guns). The only characters who would have a problem getting mp via commands are WS, CBS and CN(?) and the Aisha's (not too sure about this, but from what I've experienced it's bad). So it really boils down to commands. I've used every character, but not every class, so I have at least a bit of info about everyone's base commands.

    CBS' need for a good command shines more in Henir Challenge ('cause no consumables), 'cause it'll be visible how much lesser she can spam skills (which is why, I'm wishing for good commands in 3rd job). People just outright forget about command attacks when thinking of PvE and just assume that everyone will just spam pots.

  5. #15
    Hamel Guardian
    Dec 2013
    闇の世界!? Nah.
    3,718
    The nom-nom that CBS needs is proper commands which nearly ALL characters have. Most Z commands are already good with Aisha (except DW), Rena, Eve, Chung, and Rose's being the either range-deprived or slow commands (Eve's and Chung's are slow). Then Renas have good X commands (except WS, who I heard barely gains mp from them) just the same Rose simply has ridiculous X commands. Aisha's X-commands aren't great in PvE either. Eve's is slow, but CEm doesn't really care about that stuff, and CN is a mystery to me. Chung has a slow Z-command but can gain tons of mana with ZZZX, so that slowness is compensated by being able to gain mp (well DC might just use guns). The only characters who would have a problem getting mp via commands are WS, CBS and CN(?) and the Aisha's (not too sure about this, but from what I've experienced it's bad). So it really boils down to commands. I've used every character, but not every class, so I have at least a bit of info about everyone's base commands.

    CBS' need for a good command shines more in Henir Challenge ('cause no consumables), 'cause it'll be visible how much lesser she can spam skills (which is why, I'm wishing for good commands in 3rd job). People just outright forget about command attacks when thinking of PvE and just assume that everyone will just spam pots.
    Does Cabbage/Plague IV help? The issue of this is that most of her multihits are not active/command so there is no procs. I find Eve commands to be more clunky than other characters in general, maybe not so much for CN but most of them are.

  6. #16
    Feita Knight
    Jan 2016
    The Vast Unknown
    1,311
    Does Cabbage/Plague IV help? The issue of this is that most of her multihits are not active/command so there is no procs. I find Eve commands to be more clunky than other characters in general, maybe not so much for CN but most of them are.
    Yes, that clunkiness is the problem (and CBS throwing stuff out of the screen with triangles). Plague IV may help, but Cabbage won't. Her attacks work in this really weird way where each hit doesn't actually have their separate chances. Say, a laser goes through the field and will thus hit 6x, the total chance of it procing cabbage is just 1% (or was that 2?). If the laser that hasn't passed through the field wasn't supposed to proc Cabbage, then the resulting 6 hits would have no chance to proc. Forgot if all 6 hits will proc plague if the initial laser should've proced though. I kinda got to this conclusion because 180+ HITS SHOULD'VE PROCED CABBAGE AT LEAST ONCE!!!.

  7. #17
    Hamel Guardian
    Dec 2013
    闇の世界!? Nah.
    3,718
    Well, the devs probably tunnel-visioned again to prevent an insane mp gain from her commands, making only letting the initial hit to roll proc I guess.......no middle-grounds....we'll see what they do.

  8. #18
    Feita Knight
    Oct 2011
    Hyperion
    1,509
    In summary:
    Renewal CBS turned into a Noodle-centered class and Transcendence made all of that worse since the lvl 90 passive's most useful effect centers around Noodles. Now KOG nerfs Noodles which is the skill that they made as CBS's central skill. OP thinks that's bad designing.

    On another note, I gotta agree with OP though. Pre-renewal CBS felt much better than the new one (been playing as one for 2 years). You put different skills for different reasons. Kugel (when it was still an active and has actual damage for the mana used) for killing enemies which are on different floors. GS for a long linear and strong sweep, but is vertically challenged. LD for a shorter and weaker clear, but has good vertical range compared to GS, and is her bossing skill. Particle Ray for when you don't have that much mana. EH for gaining mana (mana gain of electron balls were nerfed to 0 upon renewal when in EH) and bossing, clearing is sacrificed for mana gain when not against boss. I didn't find out about EH's mp gain until renewal, so I couldn't do this playstyle (at least I destroyed people in PvE with TH). But now Noodles does what all those offensive skills did, so you just need to activate EH>>>Noodles>>> dash ZX 'till everything dies if you have high enough enhancements (they won't die with just that with lower enhancements, I've been there).
    It's why I stopped playing my cbs. It became boring real quick like this and I didn't have choice too. If I couldn't keep up without noodles, I'll be kick lol still miss old needles where it was just for catching.

  9. #19
    Velder Noble
    Sep 2011
    2,277
    Some advice for you Solarion.

    Nobody likes reading big blocks of text. If you want to increase readership of your posts, use sub-headings and bullet points.

  10. #20
    (ヽยดω`)
    Mar 2011
    piglet my guy
    11,520
    Actually why didn't I move this thread earlier.

    Since we're only talking about CBS I'll be moving this thread to the Eve subsection.

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